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Post by knossos on Jan 10, 2005 14:36:58 GMT -5
I will continue today to list coins from the 3rd ed. of Colin Bruce's Unusual World Coins catalog.
To save website space (a question which will need to be addressed when voluminous data begin rolling in, those issuing entities which are also listed in the Standard Catalog of World Coins, by Krause publications, and often given designation as KM, will simply be noted as in existence.
Please note that many issuing entities have some coins listed only in Bruce, while other issues from them may be duplicated in the KM catalogs.
Holy Roman Empire 1606, Thaler of Rudolph II 1576-1612, not in KM, silver 30.80 g, Ensisheim Mint, no mintage or valuation information available, Bruce # X15
Austria Republic: In 1986 the Vienna Mint issued a series of medallic issues some dated 1486 and some 1780A. None of these are reported in KM. However they may be considered I'll not be listing medallic issues in this section.
Azerbaijan: As with the Armenia issue of 1920, Azerbaijan issued coins in that year at the height of the Reds-Whites Civil WarBruce makes note that some leading numismatists believe this Azerbaijan issue to be a "modern fantasy" one. If true, it would seem to implicate the quite similar Armenia coin previously listed.
Should someone find information on these issues dated 1920, please make note of them on this site.
Azerbaijan 1920, brass, no mintage or valuation information available. obv. six pointed star, rev. date and denomination, Bruce X1
Commune of Moresnet (La Calamine) Free commune on the German border returned to Belgium after Treaty of Versailles.
* 1848, 2 Francs, silver with reeded edges, obv. Janiform (in the style of Roman god Janus) heads of Leopold I and Fredrick William IV, mintage and valuations unknown, Bruce X1
* 1848, same, but with plain edge, Bruce X1a * 1848, same, but with copper, reeded edges, Bruce X1b * 1848, same, but with plain edge, Bruce X1c * 1848, same, but with bronze and reeded edges, Bruce X1d * 1848, same but with gold and plain edge, Bruce X1e - Bruce makes note that uniface strikes of all the above in all metals - including a lead.
Bolivia: Although certainly a recognised state, Bruce lists two issues, which are not included in KM. * 1808, 1/4 Real Colonial issue, mint mark is SLP, gold 0.73 g, no mintage available, value at XF $100, Bruce X1 * (1)591E, 8 Escudos, gold, no mintage or valuation data available - Bruce adds a note that first gold strikings at Potosi Mint were 1778 and the design of this coin was first used for striking silver in 1652.
Knossos
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Post by knossos on Jan 10, 2005 14:56:57 GMT -5
Brazil: In Bruce 3rd ed. he lists a variety of Brazilian fantasy and regional - breakaway coinage from 1810 to 1835, none of which are listed in Standard KM.
Ceara: There are two subsections for this region of northeastern Brazil. The first is with respect to regional coinage, countermarked, and approved for use in this area (but not listed in KM). The second grouping from beakaway elements in this same region (some are considered as revolutionary issues and some are considered as ex post facto fantasy issues by some numismatists.
Ceara: Law passed permitting countermarked copper issues due to metal shortage. Silver issues in series regarded as spurious by some experts. Law passed Oct.1833, repealed Nov.1834.
* ND (1833) 1826 R, Caera 10 Reis countermarked atop Brasil 20 Reis, copper, mintage not available, valuations G 9, VG 15, F 20, VF 30, Bruce X58 - Bruce notes that some countermarks observed have been false.
* ND (1833) 1810-16, silver, 480 Reis countermarked on 960 Reis Brazil, no mintage figures, valuations G 20, VG 35, F 50, VF 75, Bruce X62
* ND (1833) 1819-22B, silver, same countermark on same Brazilian issue, no mintage numbers, val. G 20, VG 35, F 50, VF 75, Bruce X64
* ND (1833) 1823-28R, silver, same countermark on same Brazilian issue, no mintage numbers, val. G 20, VG 35, F 60, VF 75, Bruce X65
* ND (1833) 1809-11, silver, 4 Reales countermark on Peru-Lima Mint 8 Reales, no mintage figures, val. G 20, VG 35, F 50, VF 75, Bruce X68
Knossos
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Post by knossos on Jan 10, 2005 15:28:04 GMT -5
Ceara Revolutionary Issues: Bruce lists a couple Caera "Revolutionary" issues which bear mint marks of ICO, YCO,JGO and IGO, and are considered as "post revolutionary" fantasy issues. These are ND issues representing 1823-31 and 1810-16 respectively.
* ND, 1823-31, copper, countermark on Brazil 80 Reis, mint mark is IGO on the photo in Bruce 3rd ed page 35, mintage unknown, val. G 5, VF 8.50, F 12.50, VF 17.50, Bruce X72
* ND, 1810-16, silver, countermark of IGO on Brazil 960 Reis, no mintage available, val. G 20, VF 35, F 50, VF 75
Republic of Piratini: Bruce reports these as jeweler imitations of genuine countermark which are seen on 3 varieties of South American coinage. It is thought many more varieties of the "host" coins may be in existence. Classical fantasy coins. Bruce lists 3 types;
Type I * 1835 (1818R-20R), silver, countermark is two hands grasping a sword with Liberty cap on point above date 1835, on Brazil 320 Reis, mintage unknown, valuations G 10, VG 18.50, F 25, VF 40, Bruce X3
* 1835 (1790-1807), silver, countermark type I on Nueva Guatemala 8 Reales, no mintage known, val. G 32.50, VG 55, F 80, VF 120, Bruce X4
* 1835 (1811-24), type I countermark on Lima-Peru 8 Reales, no mintage known, val G 20, VG 35, F 50, VF 75, Bruce X5
Type II * 1835 (1823-31R), copper, countermark on Brazil 40 Reis, "Piratini" below sword and date above, no mintage, val. G 12.50, VG 18.50, F 27.50, VF 40, Bruce X7
* 1835 (1808-25), silver, countermark type II on Bolivia 8 Reales, no mintage, val G 20, VG 35, F 50, VF 75, Bruce X10
* 1835 (1810-16), silver, countermark type II on Brazil 960 Reis, no mintage, Val. G 20, VG 35, F 50, VF unknown, Bruce X11
* 1835 (1823R-27R) also on Brazil 960 Reis, no mintage, val. G 20, VG 35, F 50, VF not known, BruceX12
Type III * 1835 (1823R-27R) silver, countermark similar to type I but sword separate date on Brazil 960 Reis, no mintage figures, val. G 20, VG 35, F 50, VF unknown, Bruce X20
Brazil Caera issues, regional, revolutionary and fantasy can be seen in Bruce 3rd ed pages 35 and 36.
In next posting will be rgional/revolutionary issues from Rio Grandensse and Companha do Ouro de Revolucao Constitutionalista.
Knossos
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Post by knossos on Jan 10, 2005 16:02:43 GMT -5
Republica Rio Grandensee - Headed by President Alvares Machado (1837-44), although only issue reported in Bruce is that of 1835
* 1835, Peso, silver, mintage unknown, val. VF 75, XF 125, Unc 200, Liberty cap atop sword and clasping hands at hilt, Bruce X25, 3rd ed. illustrations pg 37
Republic Companha do Ouro de Revolucao Constitucionalista, 1932 Series
* 1932 (1854-67), silver, countermark of Helmet/1932/C.O., 200 Reis, Mintage unknown, val. G 8.50 VG 15 F 22.50 VF 32.50, Bruce X30
* 1932 (1853-67), silver, countermark on Brazil 200 Reis, mintage unknown, val. G 8.50, VG 15, F 22.50, VF 32.50, Bruce X31
* 1932 (1853-67), silver, countermark on Brazil 500 Reis, mintage unknown, val. G 8.50, VG 15, F 25, VF 35, Bruce X35
* 1932 (1867-89), silver, countermark on Brazil 500 Reis, mintage unknown, val. G 10, VG 17.50, F 25, VF 35, Bruce X37
* 1932 (1889), silver, countermark on Brazil 500 Reis, mintage unknown, val. G 10, VG 17.50, F 25, VF 35, Bruce X40
* 1932 (1810-18), silver, countermark on Brazil 960 Reis, mintage not known, va. G 17.50, VG 27.50, F 40, VF 60, Bruce X25
* 1932 (1823-28), silver, same as above, val. G 15, VG 25, F 35, VF 50 Bruce X26
* 1932 (1823-28), silver, mintage unknown, val. G 15, VG 25, F 35, VF 50, Bruce X27
* 1932 (1889), silver, countermark on Brazil 1000 Reis, no mintage available, val. G 10, VG 17.50, F 25, VF 35, Bruce X43
* 1932 (1886-89), silver, countermark on Brazil 2000 Reis, no mintage available, val. G 17.50, VG 27.50, F 40, VF 60, Bruce X46
* 1932 (1922), aluminum-bronze, countermark on 2000 Reis, no mintage, val. G 10, VG 12.50, F 15, VF 22.50, Bruce X50
Photos of Brazil revolutionary / regional and fantasy pieces can be see on pages 35 to 37 of Unusual World Coins catalog 3rd ed. by Colin R. Bruce II and Krause Publications.
Stephen
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Post by knossos on Jan 10, 2005 18:12:18 GMT -5
The "real countries" debate:
Within the past couple hours a decision has been made to move "Suggested Coins" listings into a category of "unauthorized coins" from "real countries".
Some of the coins listed under "suggested coins for the library" may be described as such, while many are clearly in the realm of "fantasy", "regional", unrecognised states" or revolutionary movements.
To review some of those issues listed to date:
Andaman Islands: The 1860 square rupee is even described by Bruce as a modern "fantasy" issue of unknown origin.
Andorra: The 1873 issues for the Republic of Andorra (not the Principality of Andorra) were minted in Belgium, and are clearly meant as revolutionary issues. The Republic of Andorra is not a recognised or real state.
Anguilla: The issues coming from Anguilla in 1967 are revolutionary and issued from an unrecognised state. Just as was the case with Na-Griammel (their revolt supressed by troops from Vanuatu), British paratroopers were called in to "restore" official and recognised rule. The current status of Anguilla was not ultimately decided until the Anguilla Act of 71 and the Constitution of 76. All Anguilla coins listed are pre-71.
Arabia: Struck in Vienna circa 1965, these are considered as "fantasy" coins. They are only listed in Bruce.
Argentina Provincial: As stated in my listings, these coins fall into a variety of categories. The 1817 to 1823 issues are either counterfeit attempts or regional, depending upon the issue we are discussing.
The Tierra del Fuego Gramos coins were minted by an adventurer and sectarianist, no different than the Hutt River, Avram and Atlantium pieces today. Created by Julius Popper.
The Republic of Argentina issues from 1879, minted in Belgium, I agree belong in the category of "unauthorized coins from real states". The others I respectively disagree with.
Armenia and Azerbaijan: Although both of these states are in fact "real" today, they were not in 1920, the date listed on these issues. However, Bruce notes in his catalog that at least the Azerbaijan issue is believed a "fantasy" coin. Because both coins appear almost identical, including date, both are thus implicated.
Atlantis. The 1933 Atlantis coins of the Century of Progress Exposition in Chicago cannot possibly be considered a "real" country. So, how did they wind up here??
Holy Roman Empire: This was for many centuries a "kind of real state", but the issue I reviewed originally under the suggested coinage category is purly "fantasy" coin minted in late 19th Century.
Moresnet (la Calamine): This was a micro-state which existed along the German border until it was ceded to Belgium at Versailles. This state cannot be considered in this category.
Brazil: As with the Argentine issues I reviewed the same applies here. Clearly Brazil is a real state. However, even a cursory glance at my listings suggests that nearly all the issues belong in micro-states, rebel regions or fantasy.
To say the issues I reviewed belong in "real states" is no more accurate than to clump Hutt River, Atlantium and Avram coins under Australia.
The specific issues I reviewed;
Ceara: The 1833 issues are a mixed bag of counterfeits, fantasy and regional issues. Some of the coins were indeed authorized, but those I reviewed are considered by Bruce as either counterfeit/false (false countermarks) or regional, because at the same time period other Ceara coins from this breakaway region were being churned out as revolutionary coinage. Ceara was never a recognised or real state.
The 1829-32 issues of Ceara are purly revolutionary and regional. Those I reviewed are also considered as "fantasies" by Bruce himself.
Republic of Piratini: How did coins from the Rep. of Piratini wind up in a category called "real states"?? Don't know. I listed them, and the others, simply as suggested coinage for our library.
Republic Rio Grandensse: Under rebel President Machado, this rebel region made it's independce bid, but was ultimately unable to do so. Is this a "real state"? In my opinion no. Yet, it is banished here, not even to be considered for our library. Suffice to say this coinage is not listed in KM.
Republic of Companha do Ouro: Yet another rebelious region, and self-proclaimed state (as so many of those already listed in our library are) yet banished to the wastelands of the USNS site, and not to be considered for our library. As with the preceeding region, ibid...on all counts.
Folks and members, we have a vast amount of regional, fantasy, rebel and unusual coinage which is already listed here, and I will continue doing so.
I am not saying that all the coins listed SHOULD belong in our library, but I do think they should be listed in a category of SUGGESTED.
Why?? Because I am suggesting them. A healthy dialogue and debate on the proper classification for these coins needs to be permitted.
Changing categories, shifting listings, and hiding coins, because they may not be popular with some members of the USNS does not mean that they should be FORBIDDEN to debate and discuss.
For nearly every coin listed herein, you can find several like examples among those already listed categories in our library. The USNS site should be about a free exchange of ideas.
When is free speech unwelcomed?? When it conflicts with those making decisions.
Knossos
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