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Post by George on Jan 4, 2005 4:28:19 GMT -5
I think it is great that we are discussing the manufacture of a USNS coin, but I also believe it is way to early to be considering spending that much money on something that is unlikely to generate anything like a reasonable return on investment.
If we have a couple of hundred US $ left over from the UWC ad, then we ought to use it for limited advertising elsewhere - such as display ads in the Cinderella Philatelist and Atalaya, and classifieds elsewhere - or if not, keep it in the bank until a specific need arises.
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Post by gkmac123 on Jan 4, 2005 7:57:59 GMT -5
I totally agree George.
After all... who is going to purchase these coins? Most will be purchased by USNS members, that's who. And how many members do we have... not many (at this moment).
Eric, how well did the sale of your coins go? I bet you haven't sold all that many (yet they are terrific coins!).
Let's wait until our membership and our bank account grows large enough to support this activity, as well as all the other activities that we will need to do on a yearly basis.
Cheers, Greg
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Post by evm111 on Jan 5, 2005 11:09:20 GMT -5
Hello! I haven't yet listed any of my newer coins on eBay yet (lazy); but I've sold several (including 5 to Joel Anderson and 5 to WPNA). There is also a numismatist in Spain who is interested in purchasing a few. No rush for me, unlike the first coin I minted. I sold many of those at a very low rate just because I was eager to get them Out There in nice collections. I guess I learned to just take it easy...and let people who want the coin FIND it on the internet. Like I've always maintained, I've basically decided to mint these coins to please myself and to realize this "fantasy" of mine. I'm already sold out of the 1st Zilchstadt coin, and the 1st Heliopolis coin is almost gone (4 left?). I still have 3 more mintings to go, and whether I sell the coins or not, I'm still going through with my plan. Interestingly enough, it was the Micro-national people who showed absolutely NO interest in the coin. But numismatists, it seems, will collect just about anything. So that's our market, and the new Catalog ought to awaken some of them and have them glance our way. Well, I can understand both sides of the coin-minting debate. If we DO mint a coin, it will probably be WAY in the future. It will probably take us a long time to raise the 700-900(?) dollars required. So its something for us to design on a real slow basis. Personally, I'm in no rush at all. It would just be something nice for the future. Who would even buy this coin besides our close-knit group? Well, I thought that was the whole plan: to theoretically have enough members to purchase the coin (if we raise 900 dollars we will certainly have more than enough members). Just like the RCC coins, it doesn't seem like they've had any problems selling them to their members. I think the total cost could really be recouped. If we divide the total cost (900?) by 50, this may result in a fair price which our membership would be willing to pay. But you and George raise good points. Maybe we would be "ready" to mint a coin by our 5th anniversary? Can we really envision ourselves with more than 50 paying members? And how often would we really want to advertize? Once a year/ twice a year? I think we should pay close attention to how many new members we receive BECAUSE of that ad we will soon have in the Catalog. Let's see how effective advertising really is, before we decide to buy ad after ad with the same disappointing results. I still think the bulk of our new members will come from people searching the internet and finding our site on their own (at no financial cost to us). Just some thoughts. Erik
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Post by George on Jan 6, 2005 17:05:13 GMT -5
Something occurs to me in all of this... why don't we think about producing banknotes instead of coins to begin with? It should be possible to come up with something quite special - either by using full colour silk-screen printing on translucent plastic "paper" for something super-modern, or borrowing old engraved designs for a more traditional look - for a fraction of the cost of minting a coin - and we could easily afford to pproduce thousands of them to use them as promotional giveaways at coin shows etc. Maybe we ought to talk to the fellow who produced these for starters: www.dream-dollars.com/
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Post by gkmac123 on Jan 6, 2005 18:42:40 GMT -5
George,
I think the problem with the idea of printing banknotes, or even stamps, is that we are a numismatic society.
The definition of "numismatics" in the dictionary (at least in my Collins paperback one) is that it is "the study or collection of coins or medals". So, banknotes and stamps are not what we are all about as a society.
Sorry.
Greg
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Post by George on Jan 6, 2005 19:03:33 GMT -5
errr... banknotes do fall within the definition of numismatics, which is the study of money in all its forms, not just coins. Many numismatic publications cover both - not least of which is Australian Coin & Banknote Magazine.
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Post by gkmac123 on Jan 6, 2005 19:12:04 GMT -5
What dictionary do you use George? Please look up "numismatics" in it. My Collins dictionary says nothing about banknotes and that's probably why the Australian magazine isn't just simply called the Australian Numismatic Magazine.
Greg
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Post by George on Jan 6, 2005 19:28:10 GMT -5
See this encyclopedia article: en.wikipedia.org/wiki/NumismaticsVirtually every coin magazine I've ever read covers banknotes. Every coin shop I'm familiar with sells banknotes. Stamp dealers sell neither coins nor banknotes. Ergo, coins and banknotes, constituting money, are numismatic objects.
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Post by gkmac123 on Jan 6, 2005 19:32:53 GMT -5
What can I say... I just the authority of a wikipedia trumps that of Collins Disctionary.
Greg
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Post by George on Jan 6, 2005 19:57:25 GMT -5
Greg,
I don't know about anyone else but I've never encountered anyone suggesting that banknotes are not numismatic objects before today - and I've been collecting both coins and banknotes since I was 12 years old.
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Post by gkmac123 on Jan 6, 2005 20:28:55 GMT -5
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Post by George on Jan 6, 2005 20:43:38 GMT -5
I think it's another one of those weird little details that everyone overlooks - like the obverse/reverse thing.
People tend to take their own opinions for granted - sometimes for decades - before coming across alternative viewpoints.
I know that I've personally always made a clear distinction between collecting stamps on one hand (philately) with collecting coins AND banknotes on the other (numismatics) - and I've simply never questioned lumping coins and banknotes together, because I've always been of the view that one is an historic outgrowth of the other.
Others obviously take a less inclusive view. That's what I find interesting about clubs of this nature - finding out how others view things in their corner of the collecting world.
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Post by gkmac123 on Jan 6, 2005 20:57:40 GMT -5
I certainly learned something new!!! My Collin's dictionary, as with Webster's, only define coins and medals as being numismatics, but it appears that other dictionaries have a broader definition that includes all money. However, even in these broader dictionary definitions, they define coins (and medals) as being numismatics (banknotes were not mentioned). I guess that I'm just not a broad thinker! LOL!!! Cheers, Greg
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Post by shibolet on Jan 7, 2005 4:20:36 GMT -5
Greg, George, everybody, I don't see why we shouldn't start with a banknote, using that as a promotional item/flyer (two stones in one go...)... That way we can save up for the coin. (Call the banknote a "provisional issue", if you will). The design of the banknote should IN ANY CASE include the design of (reverse or obverse of) the future coin of the USNS. If the banknote is well made (it should include at least a watermark etc.), it should attract attention to us. The USNS provisional banknotes should have a fixed REAL value, that means that they should be redeamable in coins when these are minted AND redeamable when used in payment for goods bought from the USNS (coins, stickers, mugs, whatever...), AND for paying your dues (maybe even selected goods bought from USNS members). Otherwise the idea of printing a banknote is worthless... literaly and figuratively. Everyone who buys a banknote is buying a share in the future coin, thus sponsoring the minting and making it easier to make that dream come true. I DO think, however, that the provisional banknote should have a much LOWER value than the inaugural coin. Makes economic sense. For example, when joining the USNS, you get as a "freebie" a banknote which is worth 1 "nusense" (don't pin me down on the name, it's just an example)and the future coin is worth seven "nusenses"; this means you have one 1/7th off the final price of the coin IF you redeem your banknote. If you don't you have a fantastic and exclusive banknote in your collection. If you decide to buy 7 banknotes, you've sponsored the minting of a full coin... if you have bought 14, sponsored two coins etc... and if the minting doesn't happen fast enough to your liking (or you don't like the final coin), you can always use the "nusenses" to pay your membership for the next year. For "business relations" who get a banknote as a "flyer" (gratis), this means they will be more interested in thinking about buying our coins when these are finally minted, as the banknote has a "real" value. It does mean, however that the amount of "promotional" banknotes will have to be strongly monitored (and maximum 10% of the banknotes printed given as promo's), so that we don't get a situation where everybody gets a free coin out of us... We can also decide how many coins to mint, depending on the amount of "nusenses" pre-sold, which gives us a better indication of the final costs. Say minting a coin coin costs us 1500US$ to mint, including dies and silver planchets, and we mint 100 coins, that takes us to 15$ a coin to make. Add to that the costs of printing the "nusenses" and we have a "selling value" of 21 US$. That means a "nusense" banknote should be valued at 3US$, although they (probably) will cost much less to print... The "nusense" should also not be a coupon, that is there should be NO "end-date" on the banknote (ie "redeemable-by-date"). Coupons are not interesting for most banknote collectors (even those who collect fantasy banknotes). If we do agree on printing banknotes, I would advise contacting Franck Medina (from Kamberra), who has a lot of experience with designing and printing VERY high quality banknotes (which look as real as any western European currency, sometimes even realer ). Chaim PS If we do print banknotes, I'll make the first step to acceptance of the USNS currency and start selling coins for "nusenses" (at a lower price than I'd sell them for dollars..., via ebay etc.).
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Post by evm111 on Jan 7, 2005 11:19:17 GMT -5
Great Idea for the banknote (which would serve the same purpose as a flyer-of-sorts). I agree that it should be inexpensive (even free if possible- I am assuming that it is WAY cheaper to print bills than coins- just look at all the fantasy banknotes on eBay, notes with Spiderman, ect......). Perhaps the "free" ones could be printed on cheap paper, but the "real" limited-edition collectible ones (for fund-raising) could be printed on "slightly" better paper. I agree that Franck could be a good source to ask. Erik
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